Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
I'm Afshin Ratanshi and welcome back to Going Underground. Broadcasting all around the world from the uae Amidst renewed escalation in the US Israeli war on Iran and the IAEA talking about radiation leaks in Europe after a de facto NATO nation bombing of Europe's biggest nuclear power station. It's now 100 days since Washington and Tel Aviv armed by Britain and the EU launched the Epstein War, killing Iran's leader Ayatoll Khamenei and members of his family, as well as massacring 168 schoolgirls at an elementary school with Tomahawk missiles. This after years of genocide in Gaza and ahead of the EU US UK armed invasion of Lebanon, Iran's strategic partner. China, the world's largest economy by ppp is the largest single consumer of energy passing through the Strait of Hormuz. And China was central to discussions at last week's St. Petersburg International Economic Forum in Russia held after British guided Ukrainian drone attacks and NATO nation armed massacres of students and bus passengers. SPIF in Russia Dwarves the so called G7 summit in France next week where unpopular vassal state officials will bow to Trump and a dying Epstein class empire. China, which just hosted Vladimir Putin, will not be represented there as G7 minus Trump genuflects to Kiev puppet Zelensky whose strings are pulled by neo Nazis. Joining me now from Shanghai is the former EU bureau chief and chief Washington correspondent for China Daily, Chen Weiyua. Thank you so much Chen for coming on going underground at last. Before I get to the questions, I got to ask you about yourself. Retired journalist doesn't make sense because no journalist ever retires. But you've returned home.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yes, I mean I agree with you. I'm still actually writing a weekly column which I've been doing for the last almost 18 years for China Daily. But I'm still doing comment on world affairs for Chinese and overseas media.
But I'm spending so much more time traveling across my own country and elsewhere too. Yeah. So it's much more fun.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: You could probably do a whole TV series about how China has changed while you've been roaming as a foreign correspondent. But let's get to 100 days then. Since Trump ordered the murder of Ali Khamenei, members of his family and of course all those schoolgirls in Manab, EU defense politicians are meeting in Cyprus where the British RAF were involved in facilitating the genocide in Gaza. How does Washington power look then from where you're sitting in Shanghai as Chinese people may be looking at the media there about the NATO travails in Lebanon, Gaza, Palestine as they bleed and as the war in Iran continues.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Well, obviously it's shocking not just to the Chinese, but people all over the world. I mean, if you just look at how Germany lose the bit trying to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council, it failed largely because of its stance on Gaza. Right. I mean the United States too, I think has lost hearts and minds all over the world because of its sort of the kidnapping of Venezuela, President Maduro, its aggression with Israel against Iran and it's threatened to sort of invade Cuba and it goes on and on. I mean the trade war and sort of not just against China, but all over the world and the quitting of so many international multilateral institutions and treaties.
So the world is unraveling. And because the US used to claim to be the creator of the global order of the system, now it's obviously the destructor of the global order.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: I mean even in the increasingly absurd Financial Times, which I know you comment on in your Twitter column, as it were, it says Epstein class label turns into battle cry across the US political landscape. They associate US hegemonic power, their deep state with a human child, human trafficker, you believe soft power.
We actually did one of Professor Joseph Nye's last interviews here on Going Underground and Howard Power. They're both bleeding from the dying empire.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Well, I mean the US has a loss I just mentioned bigly. I actually know Professor Joseph Nye when. Yeah, I mean unfortunately he passed away, but I talked to him multiple times when I was stationed in New York, kind of Washington D.C.
but you know, even when he visited Shanghai, I mean many years ago. And so I think always like to talk how much more US soft power and how much more US has soft power vis a vis China. But I think if he speak again today, he would have a very different comment on the fast decline US soft power. Because if you look at the international poll, Israel is, is sort of one of the most hated country in the world. I mean the US global standing is declining. I mean people, I mean even, I mean just look at even the US allies. I mean Europe, for example, Canada, I mean which they threat to treat as a 51st state. I mean those leaders are visiting China. I mean it's obviously they were coerced by the US administration. I mean they were many of them, I would say the sort of the puppet states in a certain way. I mean they're being manipulated by the Washington for a long time against China. I mean especially in the last few years. But now they are sort of waking up. You have Mark Carney talking, you know, about rupture, middle power, all these things.
So the world is changing, obviously. I mean more people are awakening and they're awakening to the. As those Western nations told for years repeatedly using their propaganda, you know, smear in China, painting China as a threat to the world. But if you just look at what happened in the world in the last couple of years, I mean it's not China, it's the United States, it's Israel, I mean it's the G7, it's the NATO, it's the Western power claim to be the international community.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Mark Carney, of course, former bank of England, England governor who under his stewardship gold was stolen from Venezuela. But then these people are going to meet Xi Jinping. What do you think Xi is saying to these world leaders? MBZ was there recently, the UAE more targeted than any other country except Iran and Israel in the war here in West Asia. What does Xi tell these leaders about continuing U.S. pressure and hegemonic burning embers as it were? Because countries aren't you mentioned colony, I suppose there's the Spanish leader.
Not all countries are leaving their neocon beliefs behind.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Well, I think you're right. I mean they are still much closer, I would say to Washington, probably into Beijing. I mean, because it's not going to change. I mean dramatically overnight is changing. I mean that's very important.
But China's philosophy, obviously. China is for example is the largest trading partner of 120 countries. Some say 130 maybe. Anyway, I mean China is doing trade with all sorts of country regardless of the differences of political system, cultural ideology. You know, it's not like the Cold War years.
I mean we were divided into different confrontations of political blocks. China refused to go back to a new Cold War. I mean that's why we even we dislike, I mean we disagree with some country.
For example, the Dutch navy just conducted a reckless sort of freedom of navigation in the South China Sea. I mean which China obviously consider our territory. It's a provocation to China, but still, I mean, doesn't mean we should cut 100% of the trade with the Netherlands. And so it's not the Cold War. I mean China today believe a world which country could live have a peaceful coexistence despite their differences, sometimes quite sharp differences is much better than the Cold War we experienced decades ago.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: The Dutch, what were they trying to do? Take Macau?
I hadn't seen that.
Yeah, but amidst all of that we have like in the New York Times, Europe edges closer to trade war with China. And not a day goes by without breaking news on corporate so called mainstream media in NATO nations that China is somehow trying to invade Western Europe.
What do you think about the thesis that the war, the kidnapping of Maduro, the assassinations of Ayatollah Khamenei and the bombing of Iran, these weren't really wars on Venezuela or Iran at all. They were really part of the war on China.
That is the target.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Well, I heard that saying. I mean there was all sorts of saying, obviously. I mean if you look at the bilateral relationship, I mean China has had a good relation with Velas, with Iran, with Cuba. I mean we, that's why, I mean Chinese government, I mean I don't speak for the government, I reply the journalists.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: But I suppose as an observer, what's interesting is are there people in China who say the Chinese government is being far too lax about realizing that it is actually worse than the Cold War. These are military activities targeting Beijing and the Communist Party in the same way as during the Cold War. The attacks were on Moscow and Beijing.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: Well, I would say, I mean, it's not a surprise. I mean someone in Washington, whether in the government or in the Congress or you know, the China hawks, they always want to provoke or target China in various way. I mean it's not news, whether through trade or they try to provoke in the Taiwan Strait, South China Sea, you know, elsewhere. But you know, the reality is, I mean, okay, the Chinese government has expressed very clearly, I mean we are, you know, we condemn all those sort of US Israeli aggression against Iran and the US kidnapping and military attack against Venezuela and the threats against Cuba. If you read the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman, he said made the same repeat.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's all, but it's all words from Wang Yi's spokesperson, isn't it? Venezuela's gone, Syria has gone everywhere that China has alliances, strategic alliances with and relationships with is being targeted. And quite apart from the economic sanctions, I mean I should say my country, Britain, you can't even get a Huawei phone.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: I'm going to say this, I mean, because I already mentioned, because China don't look at the world like in the 1960s and 70s when we were in the two confrontational political blocks.
And China don't believe there is a military solution to any of these conflicts. I mean it's US Aggression, Israeli aggression. Because we believe fundamentally the political and diplomatic settlement is the way, the right way to permanent peace. And that's why China has been calling for dialogue, diplomatic, political solution. Because I know, I mean, some people will say, oh, how about China?
Maybe even, you know, you certainly remember the Korean War and the Vietnam War. China was very much involved, obviously. I mean, sending army. I mean, but it's not the years of Vietnam War and the Korean War anymore. I mean, I mentioned it's not the Cold War years. I mean, we believe if China gets sent more arms or even armies, it's not going to solve the problem. It's just going to mean more destruction in Iran and the region. The whole Middle east where you are located going to be destroyed. I mean, the global economy is going to be jeopardized and Chinese economy too, will be threatened. I mean, many of the Asian economies.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: I'll just stop you there, Chen Weiwei. I'll just stop you there. More from the veteran China Daily journalist after this break.
Welcome back to Going Underground. I'm still here with the former EU bureau chief and chief Washington correspondent for China Daily, Chen Weiwua. Chen, I interrupted you in part one when you were explaining why military opposition to US Hegemonic and Israeli hegemonic power is not the answer. But do you not think that that was kind of the view of Putin after the 2014 coup in Kiev, in Ukraine, that somehow there could be diplomatic means to combat the NATO expansion and Putin waited too late to realize what exactly NATO had up their sleeves. In the Same way the 300 bases around China, as well as all these geopolitical situations, like I know it's not loads of China's energy supplies, but it's 14% from Iran, 4% from Venezuela, it's cutting away at it, let alone the economic sanctioning, which they can't really do because they desperately need rare earth minerals and the products China produces.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Well, if you ask the country in the region, because you are based there, I think they would give probably the same answer. They don't want China to join to ask the fighting because, you know, God forbid, because we are just talking about Chinese probably supplying arms.
But if China was really running to a direct confrontation with the United States, you know, there will be a direct confrontation, for example, between Russia and United States. It will be World War 3 and it will be the destruction of humanity and the global economy.
So, so it's exciting for some people to talk about acting on impulse. But I think as a responsible leader, you know, government leader, I mean, a government of 1.4 billion people, fifth of humanity, you don't act on the interest of one person or three person, but you know the 1.4 billion people, I mean the Chinese.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Yeah, but they need those resources. They do need the resources that are being imported into China. I don't know, maybe you can tell me whether Shadong's refineries are still receiving oil from Iran despite the straightforward closure to NATO nation vessels.
The people of China need these resources. And you're saying China refuses to militarily protect the sources that are helping China become so wealthy and powerful?
[00:16:53] Speaker B: No, no, I mean, because, okay, so many countries depend on the Middle east for.
Do you think they should all send the armies or weapons there? No, I mean China, as I mentioned, don't believe there is a military solution. Also, you know, China's big goal is national rejuvenation. If you read China has this 2035 goal of national development or 2049, which is the centennial of the funding of the People's Republic of China. So that's the big goal of China. We will not let such military conflict to derail the big goal of national rejuvenation. Besides, I mentioned already, I mean war is not a solution, will not help. I mean it's only going to make it worse for this Middle east crisis. I mean, just remember where the neighbor country, the oil facility will all hit. I mean it's going to take one year, two years, some even longer to recover. And so that's going to be a hit on Chinese economy and the Japanese, the South Korean economy, Thailand economy.
So everyone's economy, European's economy, so I think everyone is in Japanese. So that's why we want desperately to push the United States and Israel and Iran to find diplomatic, political settlement for lasting peace.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Many of the countries you just mentioned of course host US bases, quite apart from the US bases in Western Europe.
It's your understanding that any country that hosts a U.S. military base, I'm speaking to a country that hosts one. Of course, many of the GCC countries do.
Any country hosting a US base makes itself a target of the United States, of the United States enemies.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah, obviously I think from where you are, the country probably realized that hosting US bases was supposed, supposed to help defend them, but it serves the opposite purposes. They actually became the casualties of reckless U.S. aggression.
So you actually have Israel have this Ein Dome, but you don't have AI Dome in uae, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: We have quite a good one actually have quite a good one here.
But generally you see that, I mean, in fact there are voices in the United States saying that they should reduce their troop presences. Of course they have tens of thousands of soldiers in Europe as well as the bases here in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain,
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Qatar and country obviously now realize have a second thought that hosting US military bases may not not be a great idea because it just dragged them into this unnecessary war because they would not be targeted by Iran if the US didn't launch for example military strike from these bases.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Which of course the GCC leaders didn't want to happen in the first place.
On the threats against China, I mean you're a keen reader of all this propaganda media in NATO nations. On the one side people were trying to pull apart Xi Jinping from Putin. Xi told Trump Putin might regret his war with Ukraine. Front page of the Financial Times.
A complete lie. A complete.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah, that's already being dismissed by Trump himself obviously.
[00:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean the lies are everywhere. What about whether it's exaggerated that China needs foreign markets to survive as an economic superpower?
Has that been over exaggerated? In fact, is China struggling to create enough goods for its own domestic market?
And would that change the calculus about NATO nations believing sanctions are so powerful against Chinese goods?
[00:21:13] Speaker B: I mean if you look at Trump 2.0, I mean first year's tariff war against China, I mean obviously the US has estimated China's power, I mean after like eight, nine years. Right. The Trump 1.0 when you know China is now much more powerful than eight years ago in terms of economy, technology in most renewable EVs and just even the military power. So I think yes, China is the biggest trading part of 120 countries. China need a global trade. China is the beneficiary of global.
So we don't trade with all countries, you know, regardless, you know of differences. But that doesn't mean, I mean but you heard this due circulation policy.
So China is making great efforts in expanding the domestic market, stimulating the domestic consumption. There's much to be done but that doesn't mean China cannot survive with the foreign market. But we still want to grow open global economy, you know where country can do free trade. I mean that's still China's mindset that we don't want Endmark. I mean that's why we have been investing in infrastructure for example from Africa to Latin America in Asia because we want to build this connectivity. Connectivity for what? To improve the living standards and well being of local people. But also it's going to be good for international trade.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah, and we know how the propaganda media treats China making friends with all those global south countries. Of course China then has a kind of trump card, no pun intended in the sense that it has the rare earth minerals that the US military rely on.
What's your characterization of what Xi Jinping told Trump when any hint of a threat was against China? I mean China can just instantly turn off the US Military, can't it?
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Well, I think the two leaders have quite actually positive relations. So if you look at Trump's comment on President Xi, it's all good, right?
And I would say, I mean because the conclusion of the latest Trump visit is sort of the two agree to build so called constructive relationship of strategic stability. I mean of course much to be defined in detail I would say but obviously both sides realize the free fall as we experienced the last few years serves no one's purpose, neither side like that. So we need a sort of stability. I mean at least we're not going to go into direct military confrontation. That's why you have, you know, the two countries held military, maritime, you know, military consultation in Hawaii just a few days ago. So that's a very positive sign. If you just, if you remember all these communication exchanges have been cut off, I mean the last few years.
So and they agreed to establish so called trade council, investment council to manage sort of the differences in bilateral economic and trade ties. So all these are positive signs, honestly. I mean the expectation is, is not that high if we recall, I mean what the relationship was like eight years ago or nine years ago under President Obama, which I actually happened to be stationed in Washington during those eight years. I criticize Obama's policy on China, but you look back, it's almost like honeymoon for us China relationships.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: And just finally, should anyone care about the G7 in Evian compared to what's happening in the real world as it were, as those G7 politicians will no doubt be talking about China representing the greatest threat to world security.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: No, I just ignore them. I've returned, I'm a columnist too, so I've returned many columns over the years saying that G7 is outdated. I mean because it's more relevant to talk to the G20s obviously and we have the BRICS, I mean the emerging economy.
So in 20, 50 years they are going to be more powerful. I mean they are already more powerful economically in PPP terms than the G7. So the global south, I mean is rising. The world is becoming more multipolar. So the G7, most of them form a colonial power. I mean so I mean their behavior, their performance in Gaza, obviously their double standards, their hypocrisy has been fully exposed. So I think they have lost completely trust. It's not just the United States lost trust. I mentioned Germany lost the bid at the United Nations Security Council as a non permanent member today simply because it was on the wrong side of history. On Gaza, you know, when it's continuous supply weapons with the United States, Israel to slaughter Palestinian women and children.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: We Chen, we thank you.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Thank you very much.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: That's it for the show. Our continued condolences to all those of you bereaved or affected by today's NATO nation wars of aggression. We'll be back on Saturday with a brand new show. Until then, keep in touch viral our social media, if it's not censored in your country. And head to our channel, going underground TV on rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of Going Underground. See you Saturday.
