Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: I'm Afshin Ratansi. And welcome back to Going Underground, broadcasting all around the world from the UAE Amidst the devastating Trump Netanyahu war in West Asia. After Iranian, Russian, Chinese and UAE officials met in Delhi for a BRICS summit. That followed a Trump appearance in China. And there was a reported Saudi initiative for a West Asia non aggression pact with Iran. And all that ahead of of next week's scheduled Putin Xi Jinping meeting in Beijing. Millions have been killed, wounded or displaced by Trump's Netanyahu Epstein war. Billions may have been affected for years to come after its impact on supply chains. But is that what Xi Jinping told Trump? Did Xi tell Trump to stop being Netanyahu's poodle and to start worrying more about the nearly 40 million, almost the population of Yemen, Iraq or Afghanistan that cannot eat tonight in the USA without government handouts? Joining me again from Shanghai is the director of the China Institute at Shanghai's Fudan University.
He's translated for China's paramount leader, Deng Xiaoping, whose policies contributed to lifting more people out of poverty than any other leader in world history. Professor Zhang, thank you so much for coming back on going underground after, after a long time. But let's get straight to the Trump visit, I suppose. I mean, you translated, as I said, for important leaders in China.
I mean, do you think that party officials understand that Xi Jinping is meeting a president of the United States that is responsible for attacking one of China's most important energy trading partners?
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Well, let's look at Donald Trump in at least the way most Chinese feel about him.
You know, back in say, last year when the election was still going on between him and Harris, I was interviewed by your colleague in rt. She asked me very candid question for most Chinese, which leader you would prefer, Donald Trump or Harris? I said to be honest, most Chinese slightly prefer Donald Trump because he was slightly more honest than Harris and because Biden and her team, from Chinese point of view were the drivers of current revolution, were very hypocritical.
And Donald Trump, somehow I remember Chairman Mao once said he like the right win in the United States because they talk things in a more candid way.
And in all fairness, despite all the problems or huge problems created by Donald Trump and so many damage to the world, to Middle east, to different countries, yet he has shown decent respect for big powers like Russia and China, has showed decent respect for Russian leader Vladimir Putin and for Chinese leader Xi Jinping.
And so we have to treat the issue more in a more sophisticated way. I think at least you know, we try to control the damage and after all, being the two largest economy and two largest military powers in the world.
So if China, United States can talk to each other, it's a good thing for the whole world, I think.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, obviously things have changed a lot since Mao. And one has to ask, do you think the new generation, the new cadre of Communist Party officials remember how the United States deliberately prevented China from buying grain during the famine so that China could feed its population?
You don't get the impression sometimes from Chinese media that they've forgotten what the United States did under Chairman Mao. They imposed a naval blockade of food against Mao's China.
You don't see in Chinese media
[00:04:25] Speaker A: as
[00:04:25] Speaker B: if they've forgotten what the United States did to China.
[00:04:28] Speaker A: No, no, the other way around, actually.
You know, during the Cold War, the year of Chairman Mao and Soviet Union, in fact, you know, there were no hot wars between the Soviet Union and the United States.
It's Cold War era. Yet China fought two hot wars, large scale military confrontation with United States directly.
The Korean War in 1950s and the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s, both involving large scale direct military confrontation between China and United States. So China remembered that. We think United States has drawn some lessons from this military confrontation with China.
As I said, even when China was 100 times weaker than today, we were determined to fight back. If you cross red lines, this is very clear.
[00:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you said Trump had transparency on his side. Of course, there are many in the global south that thought that Trump wasn't merely Netanyahu's poodle over the war on Iran.
The whole project of Trump is to destroy China. That's why he's looking as if he's so polite with Xi Jinping on the red carpet because he kidnaps Maduro and Celia Flores in Venezuela, big a good partner with China. He attacks China's energy supplies by the war on Iran. And of course in Syria, China lost many investments.
All of the policies are really focused on destroying China while smiling and giving China that respect that you spoke of.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: You are right in one way or another or in many ways. I would say, for instance, this attack on Venezuela, the illegal arrest of Manduru, president of Venezuela, this is, as you said, somehow against China. United wants to control the oil China needs.
Same with this attack on Iran. The military operation against Iran, it's also aimed at, in a way, controlling Iran's oil reserves.
Therefore, China is Iran's largest trading power, largest investor in Iran, and also largest purchase of Iranian Oil.
So all these technically are accurate. Yet the point is China not afraid of this.
For Venezuela we condemn this fiercely, seriously. Yet it will not affect China's oil water supply because it represents very small percentage, less than 3% of the total oil imports.
And for Iran it's more serious. I think it's a huge mistake from day one we realized.
So as an article Economy said, the Chinese philosophy is, you know, when your enemy, your opponent is making a serious mistake. So let him continue.
This is a sarcastic way to say it because China has a long term planning for its energy strategy. China began to pursue this energy strategy since about two decades ago.
As a result, today China's energy dependency on foreign supply is at maximum 15% 1,5.
As a result, China can cope with this crisis.
So far it's okay.
Unlike other countries in Asia or in Europe, China is at this particular moment 52% energy comes from coal, but it's already processed green coal. It's with new technologies and 20% from renewable energies, from green electricity and power and then the rest from traditional oil and gas.
Of this part around 70% from foreign sources. Yet we have developed different ways of oil supply. Northern line from Russia, Western line from Central Asia and the southern line from Myanmar, et cetera. So now the supply diversified.
We also have this very importantly railway connection between China, Iran. It's huge importance for Iran.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Do you think that. Sorry to interrupt. Do you think that's why that railway was bombed as part of the United States Israeli campaign?
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Well, I don't think the United States really dare to, you know, damage this railway. There could be, you know, one or two particular accidents by Israeli bombing or by whatever. But on the whole it's still moving, no problem. The problem is fixed because we have all kinds of way to deal with the United States.
As you know, United States started trade war with China in 2018. They failed completely. They started tech war with China further again completely because it started with banning computer chips to China. Now China's largest export item is computer chips.
That's the case, we're compelled.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: That's China, including Taiwan, clearly.
China, including Taiwan.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. It's entire Chinese mainland.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Well, I mean until the, I mean
[00:10:29] Speaker A: whilst,
[00:10:32] Speaker B: yeah, together with, you know, if
[00:10:34] Speaker A: you include Taiwan, I said back in 2018, I said that we should award a gold medal to Donald Trump for his starting this tech war. We knew have the capacity to catch up with United States and to better the United States.
If you look at the latest ASPI, Australian Strategic Policy Institute, ASPI's report comparing high tech critical technology between China and United States, the report reveals that out of the 64 most critical technologies, China beats United States in 57.
So China is winning this competition, if there is a competition.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: And while it imports, I should just ask, before we get to the brig, is it your understanding that actually the Strait of Hormuz has been open for China even as NATO countries have been talking about it being closed?
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Well, China's position is very clear. We should make this strait open. But we have to know the cause of this whole crisis is the war, the military action taken by United States, Israel, they are responsible for this event and its consequences.
So this is a very clear cut. At the same time, China is on extremely good terms with all these countries, Iran and the Gulf states, they are all strategic partners.
So we really, from bottom of our heart, hope for good relations, reconciliations between Iran and Gulf states.
And on the whole, I don't want to say, you know, I remember another article, Economist said, you know, this particular war launched by United States and Israel could be a gift from United States to China. This is exaggerated. China also suffered a bit from this.
But on the other hand, China believed that we should always do whatever is good in the interest of humanity, in the interest of Chinese people and people of the world.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Professor Zhang Weiwei. I'll stop you there. More from the director of the China Institute at Fudan University after this break.
Welcome back to Going Underground. I'm still here with the former translator for Chinese paramount leader, Deng Xiaoping, amongst others, Professor Zhang Weiwei. Professor Zhang, I think there's a bit more interference as we came back into part two. Obviously the Americans using up all that Chinese Internet, I should say here in Dubai, we have a headline here, Hormuz Crisis Cast a Shadow Over Trump Xi Meeting in China at the end of Part one. You were speaking about how China has good relations with all GCC countries and with Iran.
Why do you think China didn't host or wasn't the intermediary and Pakistan wars? Or was China talking through Pakistan as the negotiations such as they were occurring between the Americans and the Iranians and the Israelis?
[00:13:59] Speaker A: Well, Chinese approaches had to do with Chinese cultural traditions were not just opposite to the style of Donald Trump. We prefer a bit behind the scene, low key and not on Spotlight yet get many things done.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: I mean, one question is, and it was raised as in the American press, the Salzburg and New York Times, China could use rare earths as a cudgel.
Now that raises a few questions because isn't the point that the United States couldn't have been bombing Tehran and Iran without the rare earths that are needed for their military equipment. Why is China exporting rare earths to the United States in the first place?
[00:14:53] Speaker A: No, China has adopted this already.
Policies on proper management of rare earth at this particular moment, since the last year, sometime last year, China has exercised stricter control over the export of railroads to United States. It had to do with trade, war and tech war. And China said no railroads for US Military military establishments.
So this will be, I forget exact months sometime, you know, three or four months to go. It's for one year.
So during this period of time there'll be no real earth for military purpose. And then next stage of negotiation, we'll see. But China now can exercise this kind of control. That's important.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: So China's not only.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: It's a process of learning.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: Well, I think, I think everyone realized, everyone realized that the United States was invading a lot of countries over the past few decades. Since 1945, China was enabling it arguably not only through the export of rare earths for its military, but also obviously buying U.S. treasury bills. The United States can't fight its wars if it told the American taxpayer to pay for them. So will we see fewer and fewer exposure to the US treasury market from China in the coming years?
[00:16:26] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, China, United States have normal trade relations because we think United States a major power and it has on the whole trade, good trade relations with China for so many years.
Yet since Donald Trump launched a trade war against China, there was a sharp drop. This is because China is a socialist market economy. It's not just the government said we ban everything, it will fall into shape. No, it's driven by very dynamic private enterprises, public enterprises that makes China's economy prosperous. We think this is a model that China has pursued so far. It's on the whole good for Chinese economy, which is also very important.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: But there's a moral dimension to this as well, isn't there? I mean if there are going to be shortages of fuel in for the ordinary Chinese worker because of the war on Iran, it'll be ironic that the war was paid for by Chinese ownership of American debt and Chinese exporting of rare earth materials with which to bomb Iran.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: No, basically we follow very clear rules. You know, first is international law and also the Chinese law and Chinese legal system.
So we cannot always look at everything from a moralistic perspective.
So in many cases business is business. It's driven by private enterprises in China, in other countries, etc.
Yet the moral principle is that we abide by United Nations Charter. We shall condemn. It's an act of aggression. If there is necessary to apply sanctions, we do this through United nations and we will do it.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned the United nations there.
Amongst all the killing, thousands killed of course, in the bombing of Lebanon and the bombing of Iran. There is some humor, dare I say it, amidst the propaganda against China.
You mentioned the United Nations. What do you think of the President of the United Nations General assembly, the ex German Green Party's Annalina Baerbock. She's on the record as saying Xi Jinping is a dictator. Is that going to make things difficult for China at the United nations? Which anyway has been harshly criticized for its performance during the genocide in Gaza, of course.
What do you make of the new President of the Union?
[00:19:13] Speaker A: This is the problem with the EU politics.
If you look at the caliber of the EU leaders, including this UN chair presidency, whatever the quality of the EU leadership, the quality of American leadership, the quality of NATO leadership, I must say in honesty, it's low, very low.
And you could not envy this kind of political system. As I said long time ago, exactly 15 years ago this time I debated with Professor Fukuyama. He said China needs political reform.
I said both China, United States need political reform, but you need more political reform. I predicted at that time. I said if you do not carry out substantial political reforms, I'm sorry, you are going to elect a leader worse off than George W. Bush turned out to be true. Many people say I said this exact 15 years ago.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Well, it's not a problem for the very rich and the oligarchs arguably. In fact that may be a question to point to you. I mean seeing that the levels of poverty and inequality in NATO nations, you don't believe the oligarchs want to bring China down to the United States level where as I said at the beginning of the show, 40 million cannot eat tonight. And the oligarchs have chosen China now as a way to reduce China to the levels that NATO is through Keynesian militarism on their part as they fight China.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Well, in fact the Chinese approach is what I call long termism.
As I said with regard to this unipolar world order, the so called rule based international system, the Chinese approach is critical. This system has a lot of problems, yet there are certain aspects which we can make use of for the benefit of the Chinese people, for the benefit of the international community.
So I call China as a reformer.
I describe Russia as a revolutionary because with this controversial war over Ukraine.
And I understand the reason. I also claim, you know, if only this NATO expansion, say stop after three or four rounds of expansion, then the war could not have happened. Yet they continue with the fifth expansion, then the war occurred. So NATO is mainly to blame. But despite controversy over this particular war, I think Russia's position that we want to change this unipolar world order, this is really understood and even appreciated by many countries in the world, including many, many Chinese.
So I said Russia is revolutionary. China is a reformer of the old system, but we both tried to work out a better system than what it. It is what we have now.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, there's some critics of Putin that say he's not revolutionary enough. But it has to be said that whether you're revolutionary or whether you're revolutionary or reformer, it doesn't make any difference when you're. When it comes to the NATO nation press, I'm sure it makes you laugh. The danger of a much bolder China. In fact, I think they use the word danger in the New York Times with China as a kind of synonym. What China lacks makes it dangerous.
Audacious plot unveils possible spying by China. On the day Trump was being feted by the Chinese, a Fox News crew, a Murdoch Fox News crew was complaining about the fact they'd illegally parked their car and had been caught for it and was blaming it on surveillance cameras. Can we expect the peoples of NATO nations, the working classes of those NATO nations, to see past all through this propaganda? And do you believe the media, the art, the publishing industry, the music industry, all elements of culture in those countries will understand that China is not the enemy?
[00:23:33] Speaker A: In fact, you know, interestingly, over the past few years, what you have observed, if you look at the credible opinion surveys by credible institutions, people's impression of China is gradually better and better than the impression of United States. This already happened in Southeast Asia, Middle East, Africa and Latin America. Now, if you look at the latest Gallup surveys, this is also happening within the West, NATO countries, NATO member countries.
So people's opinion about China, especially among the young people, become more and more positive, more positive than ever before for one reason, because everyone uses Chinese hardware, software, Chinese, whatever, made in China.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Well, actually, on that point, on that point, and I have to say, I mean, of course my country, Sakiya Starmer, is in deep trouble.
The MI6. Oh, that's true. MI6 said the single's greatest priority for MI6 authoritarian state debt traps, political coercion. It's all about Xinjiang and Tibet. According to The Foreign Secretary, all of that. And at the same time, all those tech titans of Silicon Valley, the oligarchs of the United States, were all with Trump on the plane. Why do you think they're there, given? Why are they there, given? I mean, in Britain, Huawei is banned. In the European Union, they're banning Chinese companies.
What are they actually there for? If you have a technological infrastructure and corporate industry, are they there to compete? Are they there to take lessons? What was Elon Musk doing there?
[00:25:29] Speaker A: And Tim Cook, you know, China pursues an open door policy since four decades ago, almost five decades ago, since Chairman Deng Xiaoping came into power, so open to foreign trade and foreign investment.
So thousands of American companies, including Apple, Tesla and Microsoft or invest in China, those have their business interests in China.
The problem with this rise of Donald Trump and mega movement had to do with the American political system because these companies have made huge profits in the Chinese market.
Chinese workers also gained a bit, but not as much as this.
Owners of these companies, they maybe have 90% or 85% all the profits. Yet domestically their wealth distribution is so poor, is so in favor of the super rich oligarchies, whatever as a result that this rise of the mega, now with this trade war and tech war against China and on the losing side for the United States, many of these high tech companies want to come to China to try to at least keep the last part or whatever share of their business interest in China. They want to consolidate this interest in China. Foreign China has not purchased any Boeings over the past nine years.
So Boeing's CEO is now in China.
Tesla also,
[00:27:12] Speaker B: do you think, a bit pointless.
Bit pointless. Nvidia as well. Bit pointless of them all coming there.
[00:27:19] Speaker A: Well, because I haven't found any. There is perhaps some deals during this visit by Donald Trump in China.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Well, we'll have to end it.
[00:27:30] Speaker A: I think China will.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: We'll have to end it there. Professor Zhang, Professor Zhang Weiwei, thank you so much.
[00:27:39] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you very much.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: And that's it for the show. We'll be back on Monday for a season finale with Professor Avi Schleim. Amidst genocides in Gaza and Lebanon, one of Israel's new historians. He's one of the world's greatest Jewish scholars. De facto banned in the media of NATO nations arming the US Israeli wars on West Asia. Until then, keep in touch via all our social media if it's not censored in your country. And head to our channel going underground TV on rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of Going Underground. See you Monday.
