Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Speaker A: I'm Ash Shinra Ratansi. And welcome back to Going Underground, broadcasting all around the world from the UAE on UN Recognized World Refugee Day. Particularly poignant this year as over 1.2 million Lebanese have been displaced, 3.2 million Iranians have been displaced inside Iran because of US Israeli attacks. Plus there's almost 1 million Iraqis currently displaced and 5 and a half million Syrians, countries habitually bombed by the US And Israel. And that's not to mention those who couldn't become refugees, the 168 schoolgirls massacred in Iran by US Tomahawk missiles that Trump says is still being investigated. But Trump is claiming now that he's got a deal after his catastrophic war of choice in West Asia that has seen Dubai here in the UAE repeatedly attacked. And Trump has been calling out Israel for its attacks on Hezbollah. This as Israel's global reputation has arguably never been lower. After destruction of Gaza and continued UK Use armed antics in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia called what Israel did a genocide. Trump calls Netanyahu someone who gets a little excited. In the end, Iran proved that it could have a weapon that could kill more than some nuclear weapons, 12 nautical miles of the Strait of Hormuz through which billions all around the world depend on for energy, medical equipment and food. Joining me again from Tel Aviv is Netanyahu's predecessor, former Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Olmetary. Former PRIME Minister, thanks for coming back on going underground. I better start actually by just asking you what you think your successor, Benjamin Netanyahu achieved by persuading Trump into this war.
What has Israel gained and what did Netanyahu gain?
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Well, I think that what I can say about Netanyahu is that the greatest failure in influencing Trump started much earlier, not in 2026 when he convinced, possibly convinced Trump to jointly attack Iran, but when he convinced Trump in 2018 to withdraw from the then signed agreement between President Obama and the Iranians about the nuclear program of Iran.
Because what happened is that until then, it is now obvious and we know it as a matter of fact, that Iran didn't enrich Iranian since they signed the agreement with Obama.
And when America withdrew from that agreement, they started rapidly to enrich uranium up to the level of 60%, which brought them quite close to the possibility of building an atomic bomb.
And that has in a way created the almost inevitable circumstances to launch this military attack in February of 26.
And the bottom line after this four months process is that we came back to where it started.
There is an agreement between America and Iran, after a long period of closing the strait, which caused serious economic damage to the international community.
And we are with an agreement perhaps weaker than the one that was signed by President Obama.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Is it?
[00:03:41] Speaker B: And I think so, I don't remember that President Obama promised to build up a fund of $300 billion to compensate Iran for the losses of the war, the damage caused to Iran by the war.
And I don't know what is the difference in terms of inspecting and supervising the nuclear program other than what was until then. The Obama agreement was also based on the supervision of an inspection of the nuclear program by the iaea, the International Atomic Agency in Iraq, in Vienna. And that's more or less what they agreed. Now, there is nothing about the, the ballistic missiles. There is nothing about, of course, the chain of regime in Iran.
So actually we are back into square one.
And the question is then not whether the Iranians deserve a punishment. They definitely deserve the punishment. They are brutal murderers and killers, fundamentalist extremists, there's no question about it.
And they killed 40,000, perhaps more of the Iranians, their own citizens, in the streets of the main cities of Iran prior to this war. So I don't have any mercy for the Iranians. But the question is not what is the interest of Iran. The question is whether or not this military attack made any difference that justified the cause of this war.
And I'm not certain about that, to put it mildly.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Of course, that 40,000 figure hugely disputed. And in fact, don't you think what Netanyahu has succeeded in doing, especially hot on the heels of the genocide in Gaza, the whole world now looks to try and see if Israel needs to be disarmed of its nuclear weapons.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Well, I don't know about that.
What does it have to do with Gaza?
No one argues that there was any unauthorized weapons used in Gaza. The question is whether there was genocide or not. And you know, you read my articles. I don't agree that there was a policy of genocide. I criticized the Israeli government and I admitted without any hesitation that war crimes were committed, perpetrated. But there was no part of policy.
And there was not something that was determined and was guided and was directed by the Israeli government or by the high command of the Israeli army.
It happened, regrettably. And this is not something that we can ignore.
And this is something. But again, I listened to the introduction you made while I criticized the Israeli government, perhaps more in a more harsh terms than anyone in a similar position to mine ever did to the Israeli government, to the state of Israel, not just in Israel, but across the world at the same time. I think it should be remembered how the war started on the first place, with a massacre perpetrated against innocent Israelis in their homes.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: You don't believe that was a. You don't believe that was a psyop conjured up by Israeli intelligence and a propaganda maneuver? Because that's usually been used over the past, I don't know, 50 years.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: What do you want to say?
[00:07:16] Speaker A: Using a fake massacre as a precedent for intervention?
[00:07:21] Speaker B: I don't understand. Do you want to say. Do you want to say that there was not a massacre perpetrated by Hamas on the 7th of October, 2023?
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Oh, sorry, I was talking about the 40,000 figure you just used for the killing of Iranians.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Yes. I don't know. I never counted the number of victims in the streets of Iran. But do you argue that there were thousands of Iranians were massacred, murdered by the leadership of that country? I don't know the streets of the main cities.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: All I know is the country looked very unified against 40,000.
The country fought and looked very unified and supportive of their government in all regions of Iran for their government after it was attacked.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Do you deny the fact that Iran is a dictatorship in a tight military control?
In no way that any person in Iran is free to speak up against the government.
This is, what, a creation of Western propaganda?
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Well, I should say I lived in Iran for a year and I spoke up against the government all the time. So I think there's a huge debate going on in there. And actually that's the point, isn't it? Isn't Israel under the spotlight for its lack of democratic freedoms for its Arab populations? You yourself, in the latest article that you just referenced, talk about Jewish terrorism.
Can you just justify that comment for a start? Because I know that as a British journalist, if I was to use that phrase, I would be called an anti Semite. Why, why are you calling out Jewish terrorism under your successor, Netanyahu, being experienced by Arabs?
[00:09:10] Speaker B: There is Jewish terrorism in the territories of the west bank perpetrated by thousands of Israeli settlers and supported, unfortunately, by the higher authorities both in the territories and in the government.
Police is not helpful and the country is cooperating sometimes with these settlers and even there are some army units. And the Israeli secret service is not doing its job in trying to prevent these events. And I speak up in the most explicit manner against it.
I criticize it and I blame the government for responsibility, the Prime Minister and the entire government for allowing it to happen. And I Say in the most explicit manner, this is ethnic cleansing in crime against humanity perpetrated and supported and financed and coordinated by the high authorities of the government. And I'm against it. And many thousands, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of Israelis are against it. The Israeli voice is not the voice of Benkvir and Smokrich and Netanyahu. The voice of many Israelis, which I hope will be expressed in the most powerful manner in the coming elections in October, is the voice of opposition, is the voice of compassion, is the voice of peace, in the voice which is absolutely committed to fight against these terrible terrorism perpetrated by Jews in the territories.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: You know, Ben Gvir, Smorich and Netanyahu probably going to go, what were you doing in Lebanon? What was the Khana bombing? 57 civilians, 37 children, 1100 Lebanese civilians killed in 2006.
Why are you insulting them for
[00:11:08] Speaker B: the
[00:11:08] Speaker A: invasion of the West Bank?
[00:11:10] Speaker B: I don't know.
Look, first of all, first of all, again, I don't feel that I'm in a position to apologize for anything on behalf of the Israeli government. I criticized the Israeli government when the Israeli government started the ground operation south of Lebanon in March, March of this year on the spot, immediately, first minute I said, we don't need it. It is not going to be helpful to the security of the state of Israel and we have to stop it. However, I suggest that you, you are in a different position than mine. I know that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization which has been acting timelessly from time immemorial against Israel violently attacking Israeli settlements and townships across the border without any territorial dispute that there is between Israel and Lebanon in the first place. And this is a terrorist organization which hold tribe the situation in Lebanon against the government position. The government is absolutely against it trying to disarm Hezbollah. So I don't think that the Israeli reaction is appropriate. I don't think that it is helpful in serving the Israeli security needs in Lebanon. But why Israel attacks Hezbollah? We attack Hezbollah because Hezbollah is a terrorist, violent, murderous.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: So if you were prime minister today, you wouldn't have allowed the linkage of Lebanon that exists in the memorandum of understanding that has been signed.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: I don't think that there should be a linkage. I'm in favor. I think that that should have been the main effort of President Trump. And I hope it will be, by the way, I still hope it will be that there will be negotiations going on between Israel and the Lebanese government to try and work out a political arrangement, a political settlement between Israel and Lebanon that will bring peace, and that then Israel and the Lebanese army jointly in coordination within the framework of a political agreement signed between these two countries, will do everything possible in order to disarm Hezbollah, which is an enemy of Lebanon. But the answer to the danger of Hezbollah and the murderous activities of Hezbollah, coordinated, inspired, financed and equipped by Iran is not a ground operation in the south of Lebanon. That's my position. I spelled it out in the most powerful manner for a long period of time, and I haven't changed my mind. But this is not in trouble. In order to somehow acquiesce or ignore the murderous nature of Hezbollah and its contribution on a daily basis for the killing of Israelis.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Okay, former prime minister, I'll stop you there. More from the former prime minister of Israel after this break.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: FOREIGN.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Welcome back to GOING underground. I'm still here with Israel's former prime Minister, Ehud Olmet. Forward. Prime Minister, we were talking about linkage of Lebanon in the agreement between Iran and the United States.
I mean, if you were advising the IRGC right now, I mean, some would say that, of course, Hezbollah was a reaction to Israeli violations of Lebanese territory.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: And also when, where, when exactly this reaction started?
[00:14:55] Speaker A: Israel occupies part of Lebanon. Israel occupies Lebanon illegally.
Israel occupies Lebanon illegally Right now.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: The Sheba farms Israel evacuated from Lebanon in the year 2000.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: What's the Sheba farms then?
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Pardon?
[00:15:12] Speaker A: What are the Sheba farms?
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Look, the first time in modern period that Israel completely acted according to the UN resolution 425, which drew the borderline, is in 2000.
Since then, according to the UN resolutions, we don't occupy one inch of territory of Lebanon.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Well, the Sheba farms are in Lebanon, but I don't go too much into Lebanon.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: But if you excuse me. No, excuse me. I'm in the middle of the sentence.
The claim of Lebanon that the Sheba farms are part of Lebanon was not accepted by the United nations. And we follow the United Nations Resolution 425 precisely on the dot.
So there may be a problem here, but it has to be coordinated through the UN Security Council and through Syria because according to the UN Resolution, the Sheba farm are not part of Lebanon. I'm sorry.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Well, certainly that's not what Lebanese people probably think, actually, since we're talking about Lebanon there. What did you make of Trump saying.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: But that doesn't make a difference.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: What did you make of Trump saying that the former head of al Qaeda in Syria should deal with Hezbollah, not Israel?
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Look, I have the privilege. I don't have to argue with everybody.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: Your genuine reaction, former Prime Minister. I mean, did you smile when you heard it? What. What was your reaction?
[00:16:41] Speaker B: I smiled. Yes, I smiled. I smiled.
Although I'll tell you one thing.
The.
The.
The ISIS forces, which make now part of the government of Syria, and certainly Ashara Julianni is a former ISIS guy, they don't like the Shiites in Lebanon.
So maybe because of their history of hatred and confrontation with the Shi' Ites in Lebanon, they may be motivated to act against the Hezbollah. But I'm not certain that track record of Syria in dealing with Lebanon is something that we can trust and rely upon. And I'm not sure that President Trump is fully, comprehensively knowledgeable of the history of the relations between Syria and Hezbollah. Syria was very much in assistance with Hezbollah for many years.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Do you think Israel crossed a line when it supported Al Qaeda to overthrow the and ISIS to overthrow the government of Syria?
[00:17:47] Speaker B: Well, we didn't support Al Qaeda. We didn't support isis.
[00:17:53] Speaker A: We have the famous pictures of Netanyahu and the ISIS fighters on the Golan Heights.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: Come on. I don't know about that.
The former ISIS fighters, which are now the government of Syria, and the President of Syria presently, who is a former isis, is welcomed in the Oval Office in the White House.
So I think that he should complain to the Americans, to the fact that once they are the government. I am in favor now of making a political contact between Israel and the President of Syria.
What do you want? We will continue forever fighting with Syria now that they are recognized as the leaders of Syria, now that they have replaced the murder murderer Ashad, we hope that they will become more restrained and more cooperative and possibly also maybe will reach an agreement with Israel for a security agreement and possibly also for peace between Israel.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: So your honest appraisal of Jelani is that he is a reformed character and you support that as a former prime minister?
[00:19:05] Speaker B: I don't know. I hope so. I don't know. I'm not now privy to all the intelligence.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: What do you give his chances? What do you give his chances?
[00:19:13] Speaker B: I will have given him chances, Yes. I would have given him chances. The President of the United States of America, with the consent of the international community, invites the President of Syria to the Oval Office and calls him a friend and supports Syria and changes the attitude of the United States and possibly also of European countries to the Syrian government. Present Syrian government. I think we should take part in this process rather than continue fighting with them.
I don't know if it will happen.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: You never favored a military war on Iran. You didn't Believe that was a strategic idea that was viable.
What do you expect Netanyahu to do now? Will he just go to prison before the October election? What will Netanyahu do?
[00:20:04] Speaker B: As soon as.
I hope he will resign as soon as possible. The sooner he resigns, the better for Israel.
I don't think that he takes care of the real genuine security interest of the state of Israel. I think that his strategies failed completely from day one. I think that he was responsible for the total absentmindedness attitude of Israel to the possible threat of Hamas in the first place, which caused the total failure of in dealing with 7th October 2023.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: But why would he resign if he's going to go to jail for corruption? If he resigns?
[00:20:42] Speaker B: I don't know about that. I don't know about that. For me, most important thing, that he will resign and there will be another government.
The rest will be taken care of by the proper authorities.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: You don't believe that he's going to start a second front in the Bab El Mandeb straits in Yemen?
Restart that war as another war? Because wars keep him in office.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: I hope he will not. And I believe that if you will do that, if you will try to do that, that the security establishment and apartments in Israel will not cooperate and that the resistance and the opposition of the Israeli public opinion will prevent it.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: I mean, they were fine with what happened in Gaza. I mean, you've said war crimes, not genocide. I should say that the great Holocaust scholar, Brown University's Professor Omer Bartov, told us it was a genocide. What was different?
[00:21:33] Speaker B: I don't have to agree with everything that Professor Orbatov states.
I'm fully aware of what he says.
The difference between me is that I'm here and I have a closer and perhaps a better look at the events and the political circumstances of these events.
And while I criticize and I have admitted and I criticize publicly in Israel and outside of Israel, war crimes that were committed in Gaza, I say again, there was not a policy of genocide. There was no genocide perpetrated. There were war crimes, regrettable war crimes, which we are responsible for. And this is bad enough, we don't have to blow it out of its reality. There was no genocide. There was not a policy of genocide.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Well, Smotrich Ben Gavir and Netanyahu might ask you then, well, what's the difference between what they did and what you did in Karst lead, when 300 children were killed over 22 days in 2008, 2009? You're criticizing them for war crimes. Aren't you a war criminal?
[00:22:40] Speaker B: They don't ask me because there was a big difference. You wouldn't say, I hope you don't say.
Maybe you want to hint at it, but you don't say that there was any policy of killing children in Gaza. In Castile, Operation Castle operation was inevitable as a result. 300 children killed for years. No, of course, there was no one aiming at children or purposely trying to kill children or acting in a way that may have inevitably led into. It happened, unfortunately. And these things sometimes happen in a war.
Unfortunately. I will remind you that I was the spearhead of the Israeli government policy in 2004 or five as a vice prime minister of Sharon, to disengage completely from Gaza. We dismantled Israeli settlements, pulled out completely from Gaza, outside of Gaza, completely. And the reaction of Hamas was the day after the Israeli withdrawal, completely from Gaza, they started to shoot rockets against Israeli settlements across the border where civilians were living across the board.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: So no regrets, no regrets about Cast Lead. I've just got to. We're coming to an end. Ari Ben Benasheh, the source for Sy Hersh's the Samson Option, told us
[00:24:06] Speaker B: he's
[00:24:07] Speaker A: on an interview we're going to be broadcasting on Monday's show. He said Trump is in danger because he is signing this deal with Iran in grave opposition to his donors, to people in power within the United States, let alone in Netanyahu's government. Do you think Trump is in danger because he signed an agreement that appears to leave Iran more powerful than it was before the war?
[00:24:33] Speaker B: I'm investing most of my energies and time to defeat the Israeli government in Israel.
It's tough enough and big enough and time consuming enough and time energy enough to deal with. Leave me alone with America. Let the Americans decide who the president will be.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Yes, but there was a joint Israeli US operation on Iran and Israel could never have mounted.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: It's over now. It's over now. There is an agreement between America and Iran and Israel will not, I believe, I hope, will not continue any attack, any attacks on Iran and it's over.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: But former prime Minister, you've been an observer of Netanyahu for decades. Do you think Netanyahu will just rest easy and realize that Trump has superseded him over this?
[00:25:32] Speaker B: As I said, I hope he will not rest easy. I hope he will resign and I hope that if he will not resign, he will be defeated in the coming election. So that he will be.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: But he's running in October. He says.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Pardon?
[00:25:45] Speaker A: He says he's Running in October.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he's running in October. But we are still democracy. And I'm sure that the majority of Israelis will never forgive him for his failures and for his policy of polarization which has divided the Israeli like we never were.
And I hope that we will were they that divided.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: I mean, just finally the support for the war from Israelis according to polls was good. But around the world, 36 countries latest poor from pure research unfavorable view of Israel A kind of hatred of Israel has emerged under this Netanyahu prime ministership, your successor.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Why do you argue with me?
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Do you think Israel will recover? I'm not Netanyahu its reputation.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: I am Olmet. I criticize the Israeli government just as much as perhaps some of the countries you have mentioned are doing it. So I'm against the policies of this government and I thought already In January of 24, January of 24 I wrote an article calling for the cessation of the violent actions in Gaza because I thought that we have done enough in response to the terrible massacre perpetrated by Hamas at that time.
So I understand the.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: But will Israel recover any semblance of its old reputation in NATO countries?
[00:27:09] Speaker B: I hope so. I hope that with a new government in Israel after the elections, there is a likelihood that the entire attitude and policies of the Israeli government will be different. The rhetoric that will come from Jerusalem will be entirely different. It will not be bank viewers or smart riches, but. Or Netanyahu for that matter. But a different rhetoric of compassion and of peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians towards a comprehensive political solution on the basis of two states. This is what we need and this is what I believe will change the attitude of the world community to the state of Israel.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Former Prime Minister, thank you.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:27:53] Speaker A: And that's it for the show. Our condolences to all those of you who have been displaced by NATO nation wars of aggression. We'll be back on Monday with an exclusive interview with the former Israeli military intelligence official who was the source for Sy Hersh's the Samson option and who claims Trump's life is now in danger after the signing of the U. S Iran deal. Until then, keep in touch via all our social media if it's not censored in your country. And head to our channel goingundergroundtv on rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of Going Underground.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: See you Monday, Sam.
