Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Ratansi and welcome back to Going Underground. Broadcasting all around the world from Dubai, hit harder by Iranian retaliation than anywhere in the region outside Israel, at least at the time of this recording. Today is 73 years since the CIA launched its covert mind control program MKUltra and today all the dreams of CIA chiefs lay in tatters as the whole world, with a few criminal exceptions, believes the USA and what it represents is a malign influence on the world. Its propaganda industry has previously been able to spin defeats in wars on Korea, Vietnam to Iraq and Yemen, but it can't spin its defeat in the war on Iran. And if US Empire is dying, sped up after the thousands killed in Iran and then its agent, Israel, is in the crosshairs. The world recognizes Israel's genocide in Gaza, despite all attempts by NATO leaders to disguise it. And the United States population, according to polls, does not like Israel. Propaganda is what Israelis are subjected to hourly. Netanyahu has succeeded in tightly controlling the media as he violently cracks down on protesters at home. Joining me now from Jerusalem is Israel's former president. Professor Avram Berg was speaker in the Israeli Knesset. He teaches at NYU Abu Dhabi here in the uae, Notre Dame's Jerusalem campus Professor, former acting President thanks for coming on Going underground. I mean, by the time this is being broadcast around the world, all sorts of things could have happened. The ceasefire that Trump so happily declared maybe in tatters, but I suppose what we should really ask is what is the power relationship between Netanyahu and Trump?
And was Netanyahu caught by surprise? And how would Netanyahu retaliate against Trump for suddenly declaring a end to hostilities, however brief it was?
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Well, I Wish I had 10% of answers to all of your loaded questions. I mean, it is, it's very, very serious. It's a very delicate moment in the sense that at day one for this war that nobody really knows what were the real reasons, who triggered who seduced whom.
It looks like the couple is riding together towards a beautiful horizon, to use the language of the president now at the last day, or at least the ceasefire of this round. It looks like a divorce.
It's a divorce in which the husband, Mr. Trump, does not really pay attention to the needs and to the whines of his lover Israel, and simply walked away and did whatever he likes without really consulting with Israel. So the reaction is first Netanyahu. It is now something like 20 hours or I mean, almost a day since the declaration of the ceasefire from Washington and Tehran. The Israelis did not yet hear from the Prime Minister and It looks like he is looking for the right framing to say, I knew I'm behind it. It's all coordinate.
But this is all very, very hollow and very shallow. By the end of the day, when we finish this round in Iran and in the region, there are very few winners and very, very exact losers. Israel is not a winner. United States of America is not a winner.
Iran got it very strong, but survived, and therefore it won't. And it looks to me like somewhere behind the mountains, China is rising.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: So I want to get onto that perhaps in a moment. But how secure then, is Netanyahu, or would he be, if the ceasefire continued? Clearly, he was able to slaughter so many in Lebanon in the hours after the Trump announcement of a ceasefire deal. Trump capitulating and going against what the Pakistan leaders were talking about, that Lebanon was part of the ceasefire deal. Trump retreated from that, as he did loads of different issues.
How secure is Netanyahu and his coalition?
[00:04:35] Speaker A: Secure you've been politically, yeah.
Politically, there is no issue. There are supposed to be elections by the end of the year here in Israel, by the fall.
And in a way, this war in the Gulf and this war with Iran was a competition between two end dates.
Trump had to end it and to finish it before it has an impact on the midterm elections. And therefore it should have been a very short exercise or a maneuver. And Netanyahu has to extend it as long as possible because he wants to go into elections in a state of war. Because Israelis, when there is a state of war, usually rally around the flag of the government and the flag of the prime minister. So the motivation of what is the role of the war for the internal politics was very difficult in American internal politics and the Israeli domestic one.
It looks to me that, as for now, Netanyahu did not profit a thing politically, internally, politically, from this campaign, maybe lost a lot. And the next elections will show that the Israelis are fed up with both his manipulation, his tricks, his sticks and his endurance. That's, if you ask me, the very last couple of months of his.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: So for him, the motivator was to prevent him from going to prison for corruption charges, I suppose.
So he is motivated to keep the war on Iran going as long as possible.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: It is a little bit more augmented than that. Yes, he has a criminal trial that he has to attend. As much as he tries to minimize it, it's very, very strong. And the case is mounting to something very, very serious. He would like to come to the plea bargain or to the verdict. Whenever will it come? Eventually, from the position of a prime minister.
So, yes, using the situation for his personal gain rather than for the collective good of the Israelis, his modus operandi, maybe even modus vivendi, I do not really know.
But it looks to me when you look at the three major missions he took upon himself and called each and every one of them a life mission. This is to bring Iran down, Iran with its nuclear threat and capabilities, to bring disarm Hezbollah and obliterate Hamas with all these three fronts missions of his, he failed, Hamas is in place and regained power. Hezbollah was not obliterated a couple of months ago and he's back to business and really harassing the northern part of Israel as well as Lebanon and Iran survived this war. So when you take all of this together with the mega projects that Netanyahu took upon himself, he is a failure. He is a failure and therefore I believe he will not be the next prime minister of Israel and he will have to face his own sentence very, very soon.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: So given all of that, if he needs American help to prolong any wars on Hamas, on Hezbollah, on Iran, I don't know how many other forces Israel has ranged against.
Does he need a false flag essentially, to counteract the propaganda from the truth socials of Donald Trump to try and push Trump back into war?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Let's try to separate substance from hot air substance is that Hezbollah, the northern part of Israel, is a problem as an uncontrolled substate militia, is a problem for the Lebanese government, the way they say it for the Israelis and maybe even for the Syrians. I mean, the entire triangle of the northern part of Israel should be troubled by the very existence and the kind of independence of Hezbollah and something is to be done about it.
Iran was not, if you ask me, an existential threat to Israel. It was a real problem. It was a real threat with the proxies and the fire and the fire built around Israel and the provocations all over the Gulf and all over the Middle East. And it was not such an existential threat and could have been dealt differently by diplomacy, by agreements, by different equilibrium and balances. And last but not least, Hezbollah.
Hamas proved that October 7, 2023, that it is really very, very, very malicious and very criminal when motivation to annihilate the state of Israel and to kill as many Israelis as possible. All these three are problems that Netanyahu believed and unfortunately, too many Israelis still believe that can't be solved by muscles, by power, by military maneuvers without understanding the very ancient wisdom of war, a war that does not have a next step, which is political, which is agreement, which is a settlement, which is a kind of a new setting, is a wasted war. And all the victims, be them Israelis or be them Lebanese or innocent Gazan people or innocent Iranian people, are simply human sacrifice. It's a waste. It's a shame.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And because of that, the whole world now hates Israel. And Hamas and Hezbollah are seen as liberation movements by a much wider section of the global population.
Do you think there is.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: I do not want to marry into this narrative. I understand the resentment that so many people around the world have against and towards Israel because I share the same resentment for my own government.
But from here to go, to fall in love with Hezbollah and Hamas, I'll say, hang on, hold your horses. Don't fall in love so easily.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: But they're seen as the only opponents on the ground fighting Israel. I mean, is there any recognition.
Is there any recognition there of what the Gaza genocide has meant for the future state of Israel? That it's not about the government of Israel per se?
[00:11:22] Speaker A: That global opposition is, unfortunately, no.
Unfortunately, no. Unfortunately, a major part of the Israeli society. I do not know whether it's a majority or not a majority, but a major part of the Jewish element of the Israeli society either is indifferent to what happens to the poor Gazian people or justify it by any justification possible from October 7th and on. I say personally that the framing of so many Israelis is a wrong one in the sense that whatever wrongs Israel did to the Palestinians from 48 and on, whatever wrongs we did and we did a lot of it does not justify the first step and the first atrocity performed by Hamas on October 7th. And whatever atrocities and crimes against humanity done by Hamas to Israelis at that very horrific day does not justify the war crimes that Israel performs ever since.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but more and more people around the world do not see it like that. And their hatred for Israel is so extreme, it's the other way. I mean, just to put this into perspective, just saying what you have been saying on this program so far makes you, I understand, a bit of a target in Israel. How often are you on Israeli television to give your measured, as you see it, perspective on these recent events?
[00:12:50] Speaker A: First, I hear very carefully and very closely the criticism against Israel. But when I look at the politics of the world today, I'm not at all sure that this is such a central political issue, because the government in Italy, the government in Hungary, the government.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: But we're talking about a genocide.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: No, wait a second.
You said the majority of people do not like Israel. And unfortunately, the vote governments that in a way support Israel.
So the public opinion and the governments in the world are not the same. So let's be very clear about it. Then you ask me how much do I appear or how much my views, mine and my friend's views are being expressed or being expressed to the Israeli media? I'll say not enough, not enough. It's easier for a person like me to talk with you. And then my remarks are being quoted back in Israel by the Israeli media rather than go directly to the media and say, this is it. Nonetheless, whatever I publish in English or in French or in Italian, I publish in Hebrew. And I publish a lot and I write a lot and there is a support for it. Is it yet a majority? The answer is no. But do I believe that the day will come very soon that the national strategy will change towards my direction? I have no doubt about it.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Former Israeli president, Professor Avramberg. I'll stop you there. More from the former acting president of Israel after this break.
Welcome back to Going Underground. I'm still here with the former speaker of the Israeli Knesset and former acting president of Israel, Professor Averenberg. Professor, you were talking about a hopeful future out of this nightmare in Israel.
Can I just ask you what you thought of what many believe to be Epstein blackmail over Trump as regards the war in Iran and events in Gaza? How much credence do you give to the idea that Netanyahu is using Epstein propaganda, Epstein blackmail against Donald Trump to force him into foreign policy decisions?
[00:15:11] Speaker A: I love it. As a gossip, I don't think it's a very serious stuff. And in Israeli discourse, both the political and the general discourse, it's not an issue.
It is not an issue. It's a dirty story. And this Epstein guy and his collaborators, there were scums and he was a scum. He was a filthy human being.
But is that a real political leverage of one against the other?
Sounds to me far fetched in a very, very good day. I do not live in a sphere of conspiracies and theories. I live in a sphere of reasons and sphere of arguments and facts. And I don't like what my government is doing. I try to offer it an alternative reason, alternative logic. But to go beyond that about blackmail and pressures and files and this and that, leave it to the Americans, they love this stuff.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: But why it's interesting, why it's interesting is, I mean, you're a former speaker at the Knesset and you were a big supporter at the time And I know you've changed your views now of the Oslo process. I mean, what was your reaction to the news and the revelations that Larsen received $130,000 from Jeffrey Epstein? And when Epstein was killed or suicided in that cell in New York, beneficiaries of his will were the children of the Oslo Agreement architect Turgoy Larsen. What was your reaction to that revelation?
[00:16:47] Speaker A: None, I tell you. I mean, I love gossip.
It's juicy, it's very makes like.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: But that handshake between Rabin and Arafat 33 years ago was organized by someone whose children are benefiting from Jeffrey Epstein's money.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: Listen, I'm 4,000 years Jew, okay?
I am a child and offspring of 4,000 years of a civilization.
You know how many conspiracies I have in mind? Can I tell you something?
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Okay. No, no. I understand the conspiracy theory allegation, but why? What is the connection between the Oslo Agreement, which you supported and which was a huge element of the history of the Palestine question?
What on earth is the connection? I mean, why? Why? I mean, and this is ongoing. It was just in the past couple of weeks that Larson's wife had to resign over the Epstein allegations.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: As a diplomat, I mean, you can push. You can push as much as you want. I'm not going this alley. I don't walk this, this street who never got money, did not get money, who paid whom, who cares? We had an agreement discussed by negotiators, approved by the Knesset and by our Parliament, voted by the public.
I mean, what was behind it? You know how many stories I can tell you about so many people? I can tell you about an airplane given to the American President by somebody in the Gulf. Is that the reason for something? No. It's stupid. It's ugly. It's not nice, it's unethical. Is that a way I judge the Qataris or the Emiratis or the Saudis and President Trump? The answer is no. I go for politics. Politics is about arguments. It's about values, about positions, not about gossip.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Okay? I mean, I should say that the chair of the Nobel Prize Committee, Thor Bjorn, is under investigation as well over Jeffrey Epstein allegations.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: What can I do? I mean, do you think that I'm in love with MBS for what he did to Khachoggi? The answer is no.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: I'm not sure what the relevance of mbs. I'm not sure what the relevance there is.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Will that change my attitude toward the importance of. Of MBS and Saudi Arabia to the well being of the region? Not at all. It's so important.
So you have story about every individual.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: This is the children of the Oslo agreement architect.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Fine. Okay, so do something. Go to court.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: All right.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: I can give you the address of the next police station or travel to Norway, issue a complaint and call me later.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Okay. I should just say the attorney General, obviously Pam Bondi has been fired. Many people believe that's also connected. So it's a very large issue as regards the war.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: Not my monkey, not my circus.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: And you certainly knew nothing about Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Didn't even know that he existed till he stopped to exist.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: So let's get to what happens as regards nuclear weapons in the region.
Is it now able to be talked about openly that Israel has nuclear weapons? It was only a couple of years ago. I was doing interviews with, I don't know, Ehud Barak on this program and I wouldn't be able to get an answer. Trump has admitted Israel has nuclear weapons. And I suppose I've got to ask, does the war mean that Iran maybe and other Gulf states, they are all going to have to get nuclear weapons because Iran's Strait of Hormuz shared with Oman is not enough. There is no deterrent for any country in this region unless it has nuclear weapons. And even if it does, like Israel, it still gets attacked in Israel.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: It is still not possible to talk openly about its nuclear capability. In 2013, I was one of the two people who led a seminar in Israel about calling for a Middle east clean and clear of weapons of mass destruction and people issues complaints to the police against me and wanted to persecute me, et cetera, et cetera. And I said, stop denying, it's so stupid.
And even recently when I tried to publish couple of articles about it, it was completely censored. Over censored, okay, that's a fact of life. But the argument of mine is much stronger than this. If I look at the reality of Iran, I don't like it, I don't sympathize with it. I have so many issues with the regime and its philosophy. But if they want to protect themselves from all the real and the imagined enemies they have since Iraq up until today, the only strategic protection they can have is North Korean one.
Let's have a bomb and let's make the world believe that we are loonies and nobody will deal with us, nobody will try to address us.
So I understand the motivation and unfortunately I feel that this later latest round between Israel, America and Iran might accelerate their or intensify their motivation. The only and once Iran will have it, Saudi Arabia must have it. Then the Emiratis and the Qataris and the Egyptians and the this and that. And to think that Pakistan is a mediator here.
It's a very interesting gasoline to the fire. The only way to calm down this threat in the region is to have a Middle East, a region with no weapons of mass destruction to nobody, neither to the Iranians nor to the Israelis.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: But has Trump, has the Trump Netanyahu war let the genie out of the bottle in one sense. And I suppose I got to ask you how fearful you were in the month or so. I mean, the war may already have started again. I mean, would a Khoram Shah missile, a Dimona, destroy Al Aqsa Mosque, the most holy site for Islam, Christianity and Judaism?
[00:22:56] Speaker A: I'm not afraid though.
The two most repeated questions asked in the last 40 days of this war. The first was how did Netanyahu trick Trump or trap Trump into this war? And the second is will Israel use a nuclear bomb?
How we tricked him is an issue for historians, political analysis and psychologists. As for the potential, or did we have a potential for a nuclear round here? I do not believe. I don't think it is anywhere in the card, so to say. Yet if something would have happened to the mosque in Haram Al Sharif, beside the fact that that it might ignite the entire Muslim world against whomever is responsible, be it a missile from.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: Yeah, but who would be responsible if it was attacked? In a sense, possessing the nuclear weapons is the responsibility.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Wait a second. If it would have been a missile hitting the mosques from Iran or will it be a provocation by Israeli right wing eschatological fanatics?
It's the responsibility of Israel. The Haram Al Sharif is not just a place of worship and the third most important place in the Muslim faith. It is important for every human being around the world. If I want my holy places to be respected, and the Christians one, I have to respect the Muslim ones and I have to protect them because they are the sovereignty of Israel. As for now, and therefore in a way, any harm done to the Harami Sharif is more dangerous from my point of view than any nuclear threat.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: How can Iran exist?
[00:24:50] Speaker A: Sorry?
[00:24:51] Speaker B: How can the world disarm Israel of nuclear weapons then?
[00:24:55] Speaker A: It's not about disarming Israel, it's about the entire region.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Well, no one else has nuclear weapons. It's just Israel that has them in this region. How can the world disarm them?
[00:25:05] Speaker A: As for now. As for now. But since you are an experienced and wise and A person and you have perspective, you know that what started now does not end with these two weeks ceasefire that so many genes out of the bottle now. And the motivation for nuclear power without America, because America of Trump will walk away like it ran away from so many other conflicts around the world in the last 20 some years. People will be motivated to have it. So there should be both a regional setting and a global pressure to disable anybody who has a nuclear capability, war, nuclear capability, not to have it. Whatever guarantee is given to Iran, to the Saudis, to the Israelis, guarantees should be very, very solid, very, very strong. But with one bottom line.
Middle east clean and clear of weapons of mass destruction. Can we have nuclear capabilities and nuclear reactors for energy?
Yes. Should these nuclear energy centers be ran together by Israelis and Saudis and Iranians and Egyptians and Emiratis and Gulf people? The answer is yes. The more cooperation we have on the peacetime nuclear capability, the less threat we have with the warheads.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Well, obviously there's no process at the moment and Israel's not a member of the non proliferation treaty. Just finally oppression might work. Just finally. Do you think Netanyahu would use nuclear weapons to stay out of jail for corruption?
[00:26:42] Speaker A: No way.
No way.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Why do you say that?
[00:26:48] Speaker A: From the outside you can say, listen, the guy who is responsible for the slaughtering of so many tens of thousands of innocent Gazian people, people. And for all of these malicious attacks in Lebanon and in Tehran, what's the problem for him to use a nuke.
But the nuclear reason and the nuclear logic is different than conventional one. Every leader in the world, everyone who has this non conventional capability knows that the minute you take the bomb out of the arsenal, out of the bunker and you use it, one day it will be used against you.
There are swords you do not take out and this is one of them. And this logic is still very compelling, very powerful in Israel, despite the irresponsible rhetorics of some of the ministers, which are ashamed by themselves and embarrassment to me as an Israeli to say, I have government ministers, cabinet ministers like that. But you ask me about Netanyahu. Netanyahu is not there, will not be there and will never use it.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Former acting President Professor Avramberg, thank you.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Thank you very much.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: That's it for the show. Our continued condolences to all those bereaved by today's NATO nation wars of aggression. We'll be back on Saturday for continuing coverage of the Trump Netanyahu war in Iran. Until then, keep in touch via all our social media. If it's not censored in your country. And head to our channel, Going Underground TV on rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of Going Underground TV Saturday.
[00:28:19] Speaker A: It.
