Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: I'm Afshin Ratansi and welcome back to Going Underground, broadcasting all around the world from a Dubai in the UAE which has been targeted the most by Iranian missiles and drones. Before Trump eventually chickened out of his threat to destroy Iran's 10,000-year-old civilization, you
[00:00:25] Speaker C: said that very little is off limits in Iran as far as targeting, including power plants, bridges. You've mentioned those.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: Very little is offland.
[00:00:32] Speaker C: Are there certain kinds of civilian targets, though? I'm thinking hospitals, that you.
[00:00:37] Speaker D: I don't want to tell you that we don't have a. We have, we have a plan because of the power of our military. Where every bridge in Iran will be decimated by 12 o' clock tomorrow night. Where every power plant in Iran will be out of business, burning, exploding and never to be used again. I mean complete demolition by 12 o' clock. And it'll happen over a period of four hours. If we wanted to, we don't want that to happen.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: This catastrophic war has seen thousands killed, more than a million displaced and BRICS power in the Gulf consolidated despite Israeli attempts at the time of recording to restart the war. Bombing the Belt and Road, China, Iran railway. This week's visit of a Taiwanese opposition leader to China emphasized the new multipolarity. It was today in 2006 that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad announced enrichment of uranium. You can see our interview with him on our Rumble Channel. But that was when Iran's Ayatollah opposed nuclear weapons. He has been killed by Trump. And the new Iranian leadership may well feel only a nuclear deterrent can now protect Iran from usa, Israel, Axis enemies. What does it all mean for this region proven to be the most strategically important region on earth? Well, what happens here transforms global scarcity of food and healthcare everywhere. And will NATO nation propaganda media concede their fake news about the end of Dubai? Well, lies. Joining me from here in Dubai is one of the UAE's most prominent businessmen. He is chairman of one of the largest business conglomerates in the uae. The KANU group includes KANU Travel, KANU Logistics, KANU Shipping and KANU Real Estate, to mention just a few of its divisions. Michal KANU is also one of Gulf Business's top 100 powerful Arabs of 2025.
Thank you so much, Michel, for coming on going underground. I want to get to the business dimension in a second, but I suppose I want to be sarcastic at the top of this. The dream is over. Dubai is finished. What have you thought about the headlines in the International in the NATO nation propaganda media about the end of the place you've called home all your life.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Well, this story has been played out several times, at least in my lifetime.
I remember from the Gulf War to the collapse in 2008 of the financial market to the 2014 collapse of the oil prices. It's been repeated again and again and again. And Dubai has been quite resilient in terms of its ability to stand up and bounce back again. And I think this has less to do with how people perceive Dubai and more of the people who are in Dubai.
We have over 200 nationalities here. Everyone is trying to make a life for him or herself, help creating an opportunity for him or herself. And I think that in itself is the driving force that causes the energy for people to want to come here and to make something work for them.
That, I think, is the magic of Dubai more than anything else.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: But I do know, I mean, say 9, 11 in New York around the world, there were headlines saying, I love New York or whatever.
The fact that Dubai is targeted the most.
What exactly is behind this desire to destroy the reputation of it? Is it the reduced tax take in European countries? Those countries are jealous of Dubai. They want to stop the tide of immigrants that are leaving their countries to make businesses here.
Where do you place the impetus?
[00:04:15] Speaker A: I can't put my finger on a particular reason for this.
Everyone has his own reasons, and some of them might be shallow and just really nasty, and some of them might actually believe that there is actually a cause for Dubai to collapse.
I can't guess what's the reason that they have this feeling towards Dubai. Well, all I can say is that, remember, Dubai is not just made up of atoms. It's made up, as I said, of 200 nationalities. You have a huge contingency from India, from Pakistan, from the uk, from Egypt, from the Levant, from.
Even from Iran. From Iran, yeah. And you also have from European countries and Central Asia and East Africa and West Africa. And they're all coming here to live because there are chances for them to create and grow and do something with their lives. So I don't think that if Dubai collapses that these people will be. They will enjoy that concept and idea. You do have people who always have this concept of sour grapes. You know, the newspapers in the uk, Specifically in the uk, well, it used to be you get attacked from the left or you get attacked from the right. Either the Daily Mirror and the Daily Mail attacked you, or the Guardian and the observer attack you for whatever reason. But when you get all of them attacking you, you know, you must be doing something right. Because there is something that's both them that they are wanting. There's this drive to want to see Dubai fail. And I cannot understand why. Because they are the beneficiaries, not the newspapers, but the people from those different countries. They are the beneficiaries of Dubai's success. Dubai has succeeded because of all these people coming here, because of all these people adding to the flavor and the taste of what makes Dubai Dubai. So I really don't know. Why would you want to see Dubai collapse? Because it will have an immediate effect back on your home country. Not you, I. Whoever the people are who are saying the negative things about Dubai.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: Of course there is a perception amongst those who desire multipolarity and the new BRICS world. The UAE and Iran being the most recent members of brics to claim that the UAE is just a pawn of the United States.
Just explain the long history of relations with Iran and that ironically, despite Iran targeting the uae, the UAE has facilitated Iran over decades since the Iranian revolution.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Well, we live in a neighborhood where there are people of different nationalities and different cultures.
I can't choose my neighbors. I can't tell my neighbors shoo and go away and they can't tell me to shoo and go away. So I have to live with whoever my neighbors are and however they treat us. So for example, in terms of, for the UAE and specifically for Dubai, it's playing a very walking a very tight rope. We want to make sure that everybody knows that he or she is welcome here. He or she can come and do things over here and can make a life, prosperous life for themselves here.
We're not here necessarily to take away from our neighbors. In fact, one of the things that Dubai wants to see, and I can see that because from interacting with the different business people, interacting with the leadership over here, desire to see our neighbors also prosper.
Because if you have a beautiful mansion and your neighbor has a horrible house, well, it's normal for them to get angry and jealous. Why do you have a wonderful mansion and they don't? And they will start casting stones and start affecting you and hurting you wherever you go out.
However, if they have a mansion of their own, it doesn't have to be the same mansion as you have. It doesn't have to be as large or as big or whatever.
In fact, if they have a bigger mansion, even better because then they will leave you alone. So we want all our neighbors to have their own mansion, their own idea of what the mansion is. When everyone prospers and Everyone benefits. There is less likely to have conflict, envy, aggression towards one another.
Iran, if you look at Iran during the Shah's time, and just to give you a comparison, historically, the western part of the Gulf has always interacted with the eastern side of the Gulf. In fact, to the point that if you look at most of the people living on the eastern part of the Iranian coast, they are of Arab origin. And you do have a lot of people, citizens of the Gulf from Kuwait all the way to Oman who are of Iranian origin because it was a natural progression for those people from both sides of the Gulf to interact with one another. This is again pre border, pre nation building and all that stuff. My point is we've always had good relationship. Even when, as I said, when you had the ultimate dictator of the region, which was the Shah, even he did not have, even though he had complete dominance over the whole region, even he was not nasty enough to think, I'm going to go out and beat up everyone.
[00:09:34] Speaker B: Well, he was an American puppet, obviously, so presumably he prevented,
[00:09:41] Speaker A: I don't know because remember those times in the 70s and 80s, we were not that significant to the Americans as of yet.
We were not.
So if he had wanted to do something, possibly I could have. But even he was a statesman and intelligent enough. And by the way, I'm not touting him over the current ones. I'm not, I'm just telling you what had happened. Even he was smart enough to understand. You know what? These are my neighbors. I'm not gonna antagonize them. I know who I am. I am the king. He used to call him Shahi Shah, which is the king of kings. I'm a king. I don't need to antagonize people. I know who I am.
The ones who have to antagonize others usually are people who are unsure of themselves. This is why when you look at the leadership that happens, at least in the UAE and from the Gulf, there isn't a requirement to antagonize others. Because I know who I am. I don't need to antagonize you to make you.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: But you can see from their point of view, and I think it's widely accepted that the UAE hosting United States bases, even though the uae, like Saudi Arabia said on no account can they be used for attacks on Iran.
The hosting of bases makes GCC countries the targets when the United States is involved in military operations.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Okay, if I accept that premise, and I do, then I should also extend the same thing to Azerbaijan, who has Israeli base over there. And I should extend that to Turkey, who has American bases over there, was
[00:11:14] Speaker B: a hit on Azerbaijan, of course, and
[00:11:17] Speaker A: then they said, sorry was a mistake. And the same thing with Turkey. Oh, sorry, it's a mistake.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: It was a NATO country, after all.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Because the reason why the IRGC is attacking our part of the world is because they perceive us to be an easy target. That is someone who's not going to retaliate. And we're not gonna retaliate, not because we can't. There's a difference between not wanting to retaliate versus an inability to retaliate.
But they know that if you're going to attack Turkey, Turkey is a proper army, proper military. They have the ability, they've been skirmishing, they've been at war and with skirmishes both in Syria and in Iraq and Azerbaijan, et cetera, they have a proper arm.
A frightening thought for them because then, and they're close enough the proximity that they can walk into it. I mean, they have military ability to walk into Iran. Azerbaijan is the same thing. Azerbaijan might not be the military superpower that people think, but azerbaijan, there are 15, approximately 15 million Azaris living in Iran.
And if Azerbaijan was to walk in because they felt they were attacked, Iran would have a major problem.
This is why we are the ones who are the easy target in their heads in the irgc. So the heads keep on hitting us, this argument that it's because of American bases, the American bases are there, but hello, the American ships, the American, what you call it, frigates, American. Why are they attacking them? Or should I say why are they making that a major target of this? Why is it just our part of the world where there is no much, there isn't a retaliatory trajectory from our side towards them. It's because we know tomorrow they're still going to be our neighbors. And we still and we don't have an issue with the Iranian population.
I don't want to have a problem with them in the future. So when this, the current rulers, if they cease to exist or they move on and somebody else takes over, I don't want to have a history where we have been the attacker.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Michelle kanu I'll stop you there. More from the chairman of the KANU Group after this break.
[00:13:33] Speaker D: Foreign.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Welcome back to Going Underground. I'm still here with the chairman of the KANU Group, one of the Gulf businesses top 100 powerful Arabs of 2025. Michelle Karnu Vishal, you were explaining why Iran would strategically attack a city like Dubai in response to the Israeli, American attacks on Iran.
But in which case, if one can understand why they do it, why host the US bases in the first place and make Dubai and Abu Dhabi a target?
Is that not a question that is now going to be asked?
[00:14:18] Speaker A: Well, I believe every sovereign country has a right to decide what it wants to do within its own territory.
I'm not in the political leadership. I'm not in part of the.
[00:14:28] Speaker B: No, no. Just your perspective on the decision making.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: From my perspect, as I said, I see no reason why we host different militaries over here from different parts of the world.
It's a choice by the government saying we are allowing this to happen.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: But do you think they'll look again at. They'll look again at this?
[00:14:49] Speaker A: I don't know. Because at the end of the day, it's a sovereign decision and whatever the ruler of the country decides is in the best interest of its. Of the country and its population, so be it.
I'm not allowed even assuming, God forbid. But if I was a ruler of a country and I had to choose, I can't go to somebody, some other country and tell them, you can't have that and you can't do this and you can't.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Yeah, but it's a sovereign decision to remove your sovereignty. It's a debate we have in Britain, I should say, because there are thousands of American soldiers in Britain as well. And it's a debate that is certainly being had in European countries as well.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: So would that also apply to say for places like Japan? So Japan has given up its military to the US to do that. Now the US and China have a problem. If tomorrow China and Japan have a problem, would you be holding the Japanese leadership accountable for something?
[00:15:47] Speaker B: Precisely, precisely. And there's a huge Okinawa movement. But okay, let's get to the effects, arguably of having the base in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, which is the impact on business.
I mean, you have a shipping division.
What have you thought? First of all, I suppose I should ask you what have you thought about the reporting of the conflict? And isn't it the case that the Strait of Hormuz, no ship or vessel can pass through the Strait of Hormuz without going through Iranian territory?
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Well, no, it doesn't have to go through Iranian territory because there's a small part which is outside of the territory and outside of the.
Sorry, it does.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: It has to go either through. I mean, it has to go through Iranian and Omani territory because the strait is only 21 meters, miles or.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Yeah, again, it will depend on how far you. Because each country has what you call it, the different way judges where its territory ends.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: But no, under international maritime law, the point is all your ships, everyone's ships, has been going through Iranian and Omani territory for decades.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Fine, fine.
I'll take that argument ahead. I'll accept that argument and I'll take it to the next stage. Even if that's the case.
This is. Last I checked, neither countries or any of the countries in there created the strait that was made by God through the natural movements of tectonic plates under.
Neither country created it. So neither country has a right to it.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: No, but it's under international maritime law. You're around 12 miles.
You own up to 12 miles off the coast.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: No, I know, but this is an international law. But I'm telling you, in terms of ownership itself, it's owned by Iran. Territory stops.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: I mean, let's get to how has it affected the shipping? How effective? No, it definitely is under, you know, it's 12 miles of Omani and off the Iranian coast, and you have to go through a bit of Oman and a bit of.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: I know, I know, just what you're saying is correct. As far as legal laws are concerned. I'm talking about a natural thing. No one created that. Sorry. None of the countries who are on the side of the. Either side of the water created that. They happen to be there.
So this is a natural pathway. This is a natural passage. It shouldn't be under anyone's control in such a manner that they can use it as a gateway.
Okay. I'd like to say it's unfair, but this has been a traditional. Where everyone has been utilizing this for the longest time. It's only now, when we were starting to want to utilize it or weaponize it, that we're starting to make issues out of it. It was not the case before, but now we're creating, we're weaponizing these things because it works, it benefits us. So we weaponized it. It didn't benefit us before because we couldn't enforce it, so we didn't weaponize it before.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Well, Donald Trump agrees now that they can take tolls. At least at the time of this recording, the Iranian government, to restore all the damaged infrastructure by the United States and Israel can use the tolls. So how will that toll system, $2 million a vessel, I'm not sure. It's all up for debate at the moment, and all these things are very nebulous. How would it affect your company and shipping companies in this region?
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Well, a lot of the companies, most of the movement has stopped less to do with the attacks than to do with insurance because the insurance are saying it's too expensive, we're not going to cover you. So if you want to go through, go ahead, we're not going to cover you. So that's the problem. So now if the insurance companies are happy to cover it, I think a lot of the shipping lines we'll look at it in terms of a business pragmatism that is, is it worth it to pay just to get my stuff back and forth it becomes more expensive, I'm going to have to pass it on. Of course every, the shipping line will pass it on to the, the end user, the end user will pass it on to the consumer and so, so and so forth.
It would depend on how they want to play this. Some might be very adamant, we're out of here, we're not touching this anymore. And some will say, you know what, I don't care, it's worth it. $2 million relative to a ship that's carrying $100 million. 2%. I'm not going to die over it. I'm not going to cry over Depends on each line, each company and how they want to look at this region. If that becomes an enforceable thing.
I don't know.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: I mean in a previous life I was a chief risk analyst at Lloyds of London. Would you believe it is indicated I'm going to ask you why is the GCC and do you think the G might create its own insurance scheme, Reinsurance P and I Club to insure ships in this region rather than relying on Lloyds of London or Swiss Re and Munich Re?
Given those insurers are clearly not going to sell policies to people transporting through the strait.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: I can't tell in the future what companies might set up.
Will there be a reinsurance company?
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Could it be state? I mean at a state level, GCC level everything's possible.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: I mean we have one called are but I don't know if they cover this aspect or not. You have to speak to them from ARIC A R I G which is a government backed, several government backed reinsurance company but whether they want to do this to cover this, I don't know. I can't talk on their behalf. Whether countries want to do this because they think it's beneficial for them.
Let's pay the small tol and make sure that at least the passage is open and we can get things through.
I don't know. It's a very speculative question with a Speculative answer, which I think is appropriate at this present time.
Down the road, if it makes sense, if it makes financial sense, you will find people will be. A lot of people will be the first one to jump on board and say, yes, this is something we want to do.
But I can't tell.
At this present time, I can't tell.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Now, I know you also have a real estate division. I know we're both keen not to sound like we're propagandists for the region, but, I mean, in the 20 years in between on visiting here and living here, when I first lived here, I can see how different the working classes of the UAE are treated to how they were treated, say, 25 years ago. And I suppose the only complaint would be, and it shows how well the working classes have risen here, is that people are having children, getting married, and then the high property prices have been a problem.
What has been your take on the impact? And I know thousands have been killed, of course, in this war. And we mustn't forget that the impact on affordability of housing that's been catalyzed by Trump's war.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: Well, prior to that, the property prices have been going up at stratosporic at a really high level.
The rates of return year on year were really making it unaffordable for a lot of people.
You had a lot of people who come in and look at it as either an investment or a flip.
Now, I'm not saying that that's wrong. I don't say that's right.
I'm just saying that this is something that. This is something that people do. This is not unusual. And when an opportunity happens and you can raise the price and there are enough buyers who wanted to, or renters who are willing to pay the price, good for you. But it does make the property industry very hot.
So a natural growth, which might have been a 5, 7, 10, whatever the case may be, again, depending on the region, growth was supercharged to 25, 30%.
That's not a good.
It's not sustainable.
I want to see growth.
Everyone who buys wants to see growth. I want to see growth, but I want to see growth at a sustainable level, which allows people to be able to buy the house that they can then live in rather than just flip it as an investment.
The more we have that, the more stability there will be in the economy.
I'm not necessarily what you call it, happy to see supercharged prices, nor do I want to see a collapse, which is what a lot of people now are saying, oh, this is going to happen. No, it's not going to happen because you're going to have those people, a new bunch of people who are unable to purchase or to rent in the past because the prices were so high. Now because it has come down to a certain degree, they will be the ones who will be able to fill that role. So if I purchased something at 100x, x being any currency you like, if I purchase something at 100x and in three years it's gone from 100x to 200x, as an investor I'm really happy.
If I'm going to rent it out to somebody, I'm going to charge really high prices and the rent T is not going to be too happy. If on the other hand, it went from 100 to 130, 140, I'm still in the money, I should be happy.
But if I start from the 200 and it's dropped down to the 240, sorry, 140, I won't be happy.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: So
[00:25:37] Speaker A: we have to find a reasonable point where you have growth, where people are enjoying the benefits of it. But it also allows people to have first time buyers coming in, new families coming in. They're the stability, they're the ones who are going to cause stability in the economy. And you want that. Any economy or start.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Michel Khanu, thank you.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: It's my pleasure and thank you again and I hope we will be talking. We'll have another chance to talk when things are in a much better situation than it is today and more on
[00:26:10] Speaker B: the geopolitics as well as the investment advice. Michel Carter, thank you so much.
That's it for the show. Our thoughts of course are with all those affected by the Israeli US war here in West Asia. Our war coverage will continue on Monday with Israel's former President and Speaker of the Knesset. Until then, keep it touch via all our social media, if it's not censored in your country. And head to our channel goingundergroundtv on rumble.com to watch new and old episodes of Going Underground. See you Monday.
